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Fanigo and Kubes I can get behind. Will be an interesting press conference.
ReplyDeleteSorry OBF you were correct on 2015 salaries, was a pretty even split. Think we probably ended up in this mess trying to keep that D together (paying guys to stay). Miller was only on 10 mil a year that season. Now on a much bigger chunk.
That was what I was going to say also is the difference is between having Manning as the leader on offense as to having Miller be our franchise player now. I wonder what the stats would look like for teams having a defensive player take up most of their salary cap and how they do as far as making the playoffs. I've always had a problem with that myself. It started when I felt we were paying champ way too much. I don't think a defensive player should be the highest paid player. No matter how good he is. They cannot control the wins and losses like a quarterback can. Or to have a lot of money spent in to an offensive line. Good defenses usually have a lot of good players playing for less money than what they deserve.
DeleteHighest paid player by cap hit for each team that won the Superbowl. These are all I could find:
DeleteEagles - Alshon Jeffery
Patriots - Tom Brady
Broncos - Peyton Manning
Patriots - Tom Brady
Seahawks - Zach Miller
Ravens - Terrell Suggs (interesting next two were Ngata and Ed Reed before you get to Flacco)
Giants - Eli Manning
Packers - Nick Collins (interesting also the next two were Ryan Pickett and Charles Woodson)
Saints - Drew Brees
Highest paid player by cap hit for teams left in the play offs:
DeleteColts - Andrew Luck
Chiefs - Justin Houston (20 mil) followed by Fisher, Berry, Kelce.
Cowboys - Tyron Smith and Demarcus Lawrence both on 17mil.
Rams - Suh, Joyner, Talib, Brockers and Barron are their top 5 all on similar money (10+ mil)
Chargers - Phillip Rivers
Patriots - Tom Brady
Eagles - Nick Foles followed closely by Cox and Peters.
Saints - Drew Brees
Also interesting, Von's cap hit this year was 10.125 mil. It is 25 mil next year. Keenum was highest (15 mil) followed by Wolfe at 11ish.
Thank you.
DeleteInteresting
28 Broncos headed for FA -
ReplyDeleteUnrestricted Free Agents
RT Jared Veldheer
DL Domata Peko
CB Bradley Roby
CB Tramaine Brock
OLB Shaquil Barrett
C Matt Paradis
OLB Shane Ray
OL Billy Turner
DL Zach Kerr
OL Gino Gradkowski
WR Jamar Taylor
CB Craig Mager
TE Jeff Heuerman
OLB Deiontrez Mount
OL Max Garcia
Restricted Free Agents
DL Shelby Harris
QB Kevin Hogan
LS Casey Kreiter
WR Jordan Taylor
OLB Aaron Wallace
Exclusive Rights Free Agents
ILB Jerrol Garcia-Williams
OL Elijah Wilkinson
LB Joe Jones
TE Brian Parker
TE Matt LaCosse
DB Dymonte Thomas
WR Tim Patrick
OLB Jeff Holland
I expect a high amount of turnover this year. Of the top 50 FAs listed on NFL trade rumors, we only had Paradis at #23 and Barrett at #33. Pretty sure Paradis could be expendable as the backup seemed to do well. I also feel we can improve on Roby and Brock. Houston and Philly both have CBs that should hit the market. Darby and Jackson. Not sure where we go with all our OLB talent but we have 3 FAs and rumored to be shopping Von. I would like Barrett to re-sign. Possibly Roby. Maybe Paradis. Mostly though I want better QB, RT, CBs, ILBs, DL(esp NT) in FA.
ReplyDeleteGot bored, decided to look at some QB history with Haskin being a one year wonder. 53 QBs have been taken in the first round since 2000.
ReplyDeleteOf those 53, 3 have been one year wonders. Trubisky, Tannehill and Sanchez. Not a great group to be put into. Also I found it interesting Tannehill was a receiver for two years in college! Though none of them threw 50 tds in a year (all around 30) and had a 70% completion percentage.
Of the 53, I listed 18 as busts. So 34% of first round QBs are busts. You guys would probably have the list of busts higher than I did. I went with if you saw out your rookie contract or the team had significant return of investment then I didn't consider them a bust (even if they didn't play very good). Otherwise it will probably get pretty close to 50%.
I had 5 HOF, interesting all 5 within a three year period (Palmer, Burger, Rivers, Eli and Rodgers). Then you could make a case for Flacco and Ryan having won a Superbowl and league MVP. Cutler and Smith I think miss out.
Sounds like Ed Donatell could be returning to Denver. His contract is up and was Fangio’s DB’s coach in Chicago. If I am not mistaken, he has had at least two stints in Denver previously.
ReplyDeleteI know Ed. His daughter played youth sports with me daughter. Great family.
DeleteRumors are swirling that the Cardinals may draft Kyler Murray and trade Josh Rosen.
ReplyDeleteIf you are Elway, do you consider this?
Brad, an old response. You have to be out of high school for 3 years to be able to enter the draft. Thus Lawrence from Clemson cannot enter until 2021.
ReplyDeleteThe only QB that excites me in this draft is Kyler Murray. If you knew that he was going to play football, I would just about do anything to get him.
Even if we could persuade him to not play baseball number 10 would not be high enough to get him. I wish though.
DeleteAgreed Digger. That is why I said do just about anything. I would give up a lot.
DeleteI don't see anyone on here critical of Elway on his 4th coach in 6 years. I don't know enough of Fangio to be critical, but I will be critical right now about the set up between Fangio and Kubiak. We already have a dysfunctional ownership by committee with out a clear cut person in charge. I would hate to see a Head Coaching by committee. Elway is already too involved and now it could be Fangio/Kubiak with Elway looking over theie shoulders.
ReplyDeleteAlso, does it mean that Kubiak will not be as involved in personnel and draft decisions. How could the OC or de facto OC play a huge role in drafting. Wouldn't the DC also want as much input.
And if Kubiak backs out of his role in drafting, are we left with just Elway ans Russell, and these 2 suck at it. I know many on here with dispute this, but as I read other sites and blogs, it is pretty much generally accepted that prior to 2018, Elway was way below average in drafting.
I think Murray is very good, but any mobile QB coming out of college worries me. I think his mobility allows him greater opportunities to throw the ball in college. That won’t be there in the NFL. Those type of QB’s generally fizzle out quickly. Some stick, some don’t. Is he another Maholmes type? Could be. Or is he another RG III or Kap? could be as well. It is tough to say. He has height disadvantages that will be of concern to most teams.
ReplyDeleteAs you stated, No 10 will not get him and the Jags will almost certainly be after him as well. Maybe the Giants also. And maybe the Cards if they aren’t sold on Rosen. In any event, I suspect we will have to move up to #1 or #2 if we want him. That will require quite a bit of draft capital.
Many shorter mobile QBs now thriving in NFL. Things are changing. Russel Wilson and Baker Mayfield come to mind. With new rule changes I would do whatever it takes to get him. We need a great young QB or we will suck KC's ass for next 15 years.
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with short QBs. Only issue is the two guys you listed have 20 pounds on Murray. That muscle mass is what you need to take the pounding in the NFL.
DeleteBut he can definitely sling the ball.
Also interesting. If Murray and Haskins get drafted in the first round, that will be two one year wonders. That's after only having 3 in the last 18 years!
DeleteYou would think Murray fits that Tyrod Taylor model that Kubes loves. Speaking of which made we go after Taylor?
Also if the Giants and Jags take Haskin and Murray that would put us in the drivers seat for Lock (Cutler 2.0).
We gave them good games this year. I like Mahomes, but losing Hunt is huge. I'm not ready to crown their asses just yet.
DeleteLots of media talk about how bad the Broncos have drafted under Elway so I decided to do some research on my own. I've listed all the players Elway has drafted and ranked them 0,1,2,3. From what I can tell, JE's picks including the UDFAs are above average;
ReplyDelete2011 = 9 picks
1- Von Miller - LB = 3
2- Rahim Moore - DB = 2
2- Orlando Franklin - OT = 3
3- Nate Irving - LB = 2
4- Quinton Carter - DB = 1
4- Julius Thomas - TE = 3
6- Mike Mohamed - LB = 1
7- Virgil Green - TE = 3
7- Jeremy Beal - DL = 0
2012 = 7 picks
2- Derek Wolfe - DT = 3
2- Brock Osweiller - QB = 2
3- Ronnie Hillman - RB = 2
4- Omar Bolden - DB = 1
4- Philip Blake - OL = 0
5- Malik Jackson - DT = 3
6- Danny Trevathan - LB = 3
2013 = 7 picks
1- Sylvester Williams - DT = 2
2- Montee Ball - RB = 1
3- Kayvon Webster - DB = 2
5- Quanterus Smith - DE = 0
5- Traveres King - WR = 1
6- Vinston Painter - G = 0
7- Zac Dysert - QB = 0
2014 = 6 picks
1- Bradly Roby - DB = 2
2- Cody Latimer - WR = 1
3- Micheal Schofield - RT = 2
5- Lamin Barrow - LB = 0
6- Matt Paradis - C = 3
7- Cory Nelson -LB = 1
2015 = 9 picks
1- Shane Ray - DE = 2
2- Ty Sambrailo - OT = 2
3- Jeff Heuerman - TE = 2
4- Max Garcia - G = 2
5- Lorenzo Doss - CB = 1
6- Darius Kilgo - NT = 1
7- Trevor Siemian - QB = 2
7- Taurean Nixon - B = 0
7- Josh Furman - DB = 0
2016 = 8 picks
1- Paxton Lynch - QB = 1
2- Adam Gotsis - DT = 2
3- Justin Simmons - S = 3
4- Devontae Booker - RB = 2
5- Connor McGovern - G = 2
6- Andy Janovich - FB = 2
6- Will Parks - S = 2
7- Riley Dixon - P = 3
2017 = 8 picks
1- Garett Bolles - OT = 3
2- Demarcus Walker - DE = 2
3- Carlos Henderson - WR = 0
3- Brandon Langley - CB = 1
5- Jake Butt - TE = 1
5- Isaiah McKensie - WR = 0
6- De'Angelo Henderson - RB = 1
7- Chad Kelly - QB = 0
2018 = 10 picks
1- Bradley Chubb - DE = 3
2- Courtland Sutton - WR = 3
3- Royce Freeman - RB = 3
3- Isaac Yiadom - CB = 2
4- Josey Jewell -ILB = 3
4- DaeSean Hamilton - WR = 2
5- Troy Fumagalli - TE = X
6- Sam Jones - G = X
6- Keishawn Bierria - ILB = 1
7- David Williams - RB = X
UDFAs 2011-2018 = 14 picks
C.J. Anderson = 3, Chris Harris Jr. = 3, Philip Lindsay = 3, Shaquil Barrett = 2, Ben Garland =2, Jordan Taylor = 2, Juwan Thompson = 1, Kyle Peko = 1, Jeff Holland = 1, Benie Fowler = 1, Lerentee McCray = 1, Duke Ihenacho = 1, Zaire Anderson = 1, Jamal Carter = 1
TOTALS
3 = 18 -- Excellent, Very Good, score ------ 54
2 = 24 -- Good, Above Average, score ------- 48
1 = 22 -- Average, Below Average, score ---- 22
0 = 11 -- Contributed, Bust, score --------- 0
X = 3 -- Injured, Too Soon To Tell, score - 0
=== 78 -- ------------------- Total score - 124
* = 75 -- Adjusted Total (minus injured 3)
Average = 1.653 (total score divided by adjusted picks)
_____
Drafted = 64
UDFAs = 14
Also, I considered their contributions to other teams, not just what they did as a Bronco... so if we drafted them 4-5 years ago, they played for us but then went to another team for several years, that was included in their ranking. I figure any player with some starts and lasting at least 4 years in the NFL deserve at least a 1 or higher depending on how much they played and how well. Feel free to copy my evaluations and re-post with your own scores between 0 and 3.
Delete2011 = 9 picks
ReplyDelete1- Von Miller - LB = 3
2- Rahim Moore - DB = 2
2- Orlando Franklin - OT = 2
3- Nate Irving - LB = 1
4- Quinton Carter - DB = 1
4- Julius Thomas - TE = 2
6- Mike Mohamed - LB = 0
7- Virgil Green - TE = 2
7- Jeremy Beal - DL = 0
2012 = 7 picks
2- Derek Wolfe - DT = 2
2- Brock Osweiller - QB = 2
3- Ronnie Hillman - RB = 1
4- Omar Bolden - DB = 1
4- Philip Blake - OL = 0
5- Malik Jackson - DT = 3
6- Danny Trevathan - LB = 3
2013 = 7 picks
1- Sylvester Williams - DT = 2
2- Montee Ball - RB = 1
3- Kayvon Webster - DB = 2
5- Quanterus Smith - DE = 0
5- Traveres King - WR = 1
6- Vinston Painter - G = 0
7- Zac Dysert - QB = 0
2014 = 6 picks
1- Bradly Roby - DB = 2
2- Cody Latimer - WR = 1
3- Micheal Schofield - RT = 2
5- Lamin Barrow - LB = 0
6- Matt Paradis - C = 3
7- Cory Nelson -LB = 1
2015 = 9 picks
1- Shane Ray - DE = 2
2- Ty Sambrailo - OT = 1
3- Jeff Heuerman - TE = 1
4- Max Garcia - G = 2
5- Lorenzo Doss - CB = 1
6- Darius Kilgo - NT = 1
7- Trevor Siemian - QB = 2
7- Taurean Nixon - B = 0
7- Josh Furman - DB = 0
2016 = 8 picks
1- Paxton Lynch - QB = 1
2- Adam Gotsis - DT = 2
3- Justin Simmons - S = 2
4- Devontae Booker - RB = 2
5- Connor McGovern - G = 2
6- Andy Janovich - FB = 2
6- Will Parks - S = 2
7- Riley Dixon - P = 3
2017 = 8 picks
1- Garett Bolles - OT = 3
2- Demarcus Walker - DE = 2
3- Carlos Henderson - WR = 0
3- Brandon Langley - CB = 2
5- Jake Butt - TE = 1
5- Isaiah McKensie - WR = 0
6- De'Angelo Henderson - RB = 1
7- Chad Kelly - QB = 0
2018 = 10 picks
1- Bradley Chubb - DE = 3
2- Courtland Sutton - WR = 3
3- Royce Freeman - RB = 3
3- Isaac Yiadom - CB = 2
4- Josey Jewell -ILB = 2
4- DaeSean Hamilton - WR = 2
5- Troy Fumagalli - TE = X
6- Sam Jones - G = X
6- Keishawn Bierria - ILB = 1
7- David Williams - RB = 1
I added yours up and your average is 1.520 (mine was 1.653) puts us somewhere between average and above average 0 the 0,1,2,3 scale. Maybe we should make it a 0,1,2,3,4 scale with 0=bust. 1=below average, 2= average, 3=above average, 4=excellent?
DeleteI was going to mention that. I think that's a good idea.
DeleteSteelers without Bell and Brown. Wow!
ReplyDeleteGot JuJu and Conner, they should be alright.
DeleteFangio's press conference today was pretty good. Cracked some jokes. A lot of players were there in attendance. Will be interesting to see what he does.
ReplyDeleteSaid that Kubes wasn't the OC (yet) and final roster decisions are with John, said it is his baby.
I took the list and ordered top to bottom. Basically, would I pick the dude over the previous guy and so on. Then I picked a spot where I thought it went from potential/starter to below that. So below average.
ReplyDeleteHere is the list:
Von Miller
Danny Trevathan
Bradley Chubb
Matt Paradis
Derek Wolfe
Malik Jackson
Adam Gotsis
Courtland Sutton
Julius Thomas
Royce Freeman
Orlando Franklin
Justin Simmons
Connor McGovern
Garett Bolles
Will Parks
Bradley Roby
Shane Ray
DaeSean Hamilton
Andy Janovich
Rahim Moore
Devontae Booker
Demarcus Walker
Chad Kelly
Isaac Yiadom
Brock Osweiller
Trevor Siemain
Josey Jewell
Micheal Schofield
Max Garcia
Virgil Green
Jeff Heuerman
Sam Jones <--- Average
De'Angelo Henderson
David Williams
Ronnie Hillman
Sylvester Williams
Jake Butt
Brandon Langley
Kayvon Webster
Quinton Carter
Ty Sambrailo
Troy Fumagalli
Keishawn Bierria
Riley Dixon
Cory Nelson
Nate Irving
Omar Bolden
Paxton Lynch
Darius Kilgo
Cody Latimer
Carlos Henderson
Lorenzo Doss
Montee Ball
Isaiah McKensie
Mike Mohamed
Jeremy Beal
Quanterus Smith
Lamin Barrow
Traveres King
Josh Furman
Taurean Nixon
Vinston Painter
Zac Dysert
Philip Blake
Sam Jones was my dividing point. Surprising he was exactly the mid point. So Elway has been the definition of average in my books.
I agree basically. I changed the scoring from a 0,1,2,3 scale to a 0,1,2,3,4 scale with 0=bust. 1=below average, 2= average, 3=above average, 4=excellent and I average it at 2.14, just a hair above average but that's also adding in the UDFAs like Harris and Lindsay that I have listed at the bottom of the list.
DeleteNot sure if obf would agree with the average part, but I think the rest of us feel he's been average. Problem is Denver's not satisfied with average. Nor should we be.
ReplyDeleteOh I agree, we shouldn't settle for average but we also shouldn't exaggerate the negative. Looking at our evaluations, it appears that the 2013 and 2015 classes were the worse as far as talent goes... which is interesting since both of those years were also SB years for the Broncos. Maybe being in the SB those 2 years affected our focus on the draft in some way?
Delete2017 was also a disaster.
DeleteSo where do we go from here? Free agency comes first. What do we go after? I still want that right tackle from Miami to Juan Jaimes. I don't feel that we will don't keep them for a different free agent quarterback. Hopefully he takes less money. That would make the offense make even less money obf.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I really hope we do is hit the cornerback Market early. That way we're not in a bind to have to sign Roby. I also think they need to look at the offensive line again. There are a bunch of X Broncos on the free agent list. Personally I don't want any of them back but maybe you guys do. I say hit free agency hard and take another swing at a high draft pick quarterback.
OMG, where do I start?? I will spend time later today to assign values to all of the picks. But a couple of glaring holes to this "average" concept.
ReplyDeleteAt a quick glance I almost fell out of my seat laughing when you guys gave Garret "Holds" a 3. OMFG. Before this pick, Mark Schlerith and Alfred Williams wanted the Broncos to draft Ramczyk instead of "Holds". That would have been a "3". Schlerith berates "Holds" every week during the season saying that his technique is awful and he never improves. He has more holding penalties than anyone in the last 2 years. I assume you guys are giving him a 3 because he has started every game (and want to artificially elevate Elways record). Following that strategy Keenum would also be a great acquisition. he started every game. The reasons that these 2 clowns start every game is because of the serious lack of depth and talent on this team which is due to "way below average drafting" by Elway.
Also, you CANNOT include the UFDAs in the analysis. Here, let me help you. The "U" stands for undrafted. The Broncos have always been one of the best at finding great UFDAs and Elway has continued that tradition. An interesting thought - maybe the UFDAs under Elway, like Lindsay, get a better opportunity to prove their value because of the severe lack of depth in camp due to Elways suckky drafting. Also, you can't just take the top UFDAs and give them grades and then ignore all of the UFDAs that did not make the team. That would sure bring the average down. Again, when evaluating the DRAFT results, you CANNOT include UFDAs. A quick quiz, what does the "U" stand for?
Lots more to come.
Also VJ, would also be a 3 under your logic. He coached all 32 games the last 2 years and did not miss any games. Oh wait, how did he perform? I also ask how did Bolles perform to get a 3?
DeleteThe bottom line on drafting is what type of talent and depth do you have on the team. Let's examine this and see if the laughable conclusion of "average" holds any water.
ReplyDeleteQBs - We have the worst in the league, or cetainly in bottom 3. Elway's drafting of QBs has led us to this situation.
OL - The only reason "Holds" starts at LT is because of the sever lack of talent on the line. Many busts n the draft at OL including Sambrillo. Overall we has a bottom third offensive line with very little depth due to sucky drafting.
WR - In the past 2 drafts, we spent a 2, 3, 4, and 5th pick on WR's. 2 could not play at all. Hamilton was ok for a rookie season and Sutton shows great potential, even though he had some huge drops. We have a very young WR corp with some potential but some real depth concerns. We will see how strong and when Sanders can return.
RBs- Love Lindsay, great UFDA. Decent depth but given the picks that we spent on Booker and Freeman, they should be better.
TE - We keep drafting guys with injury histories and they keep getting injurered? hmm, wonder why. Clearly lacking reliability and depth at this position.
Defense to come.
DL - I think we have decent talent and decent depth.
ReplyDeleteOLB - Great talent and depth
CBs - We in big trouble. Harris is great. Roby, a 1st round pick, is not great. Yiadow struggled but has potential to get better with experience. Langley is one of Elways dumbest draft picks. He had played very little at CB and Elway drafted him in the 3rd round. you guys gave him a 3?????. He could barely get off the practice squad in his 2nd year. I almost had to stop debating with you guys when I saw that you guys gave him a 2.
Safeties I think we have decent talent and depth.
So with all the holes in the roster, how can our drafting have been "average"? Because of the flaws in the analysis of including UFDAs and giving Bolles a 3 and Langley a 2. If you guys thinks Bolles was an outstanding pick and Langley was a very good pick, then I am wasting me time. I'm sure there are other players way over rated in a effort to make Elway look better.
More to come
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteForgot to include ILBs, we suck there.
DeleteGee, don't stroke out there OBF, it's just opinions. LOL! Maybe you didn't read everything. One, YES, UDFAs DO count IMO. If they are on the team and not acquired from another team, they count IMO. Now that certainly doesn't stop you from dividing for average using just the draft picks, 61 (-3 on IR) and providing that info. It’s all interesting.
DeleteYour agenda seems to want to punish JE. That's fine too, he isn't infallible when it comes to making mistakes... but if we're going to judge him on players, it has to be ALL the players signed, not just the drafted players. It does seem to me that JE is getting punished in the form of criticism, some here and certainly some by media and other blogs like MHR. Second, I had Langley rated as a 1, not a 2 or a 3 (you claimed both 2&3 for the same guy, Langley) which by my original rating was “average or below average”. Also, we had Harris and Talib plus a 1st rd pick in Roby playing ahead of Langley, so ya, it was hard for him to get playing time but that doesn't make him a bust. On the subject of evaluation numbers, maybe you missed what was posted; 3 = Excellent or Very Good, 2 = Good or Above Average. That means excellent would be like a Miller or Harris, Very Good would be like a Leary or Freeman, Good, is like a Roby or Simmons and Above Average wold be like Stewart or Riley… Outstanding was never part of the equation but maybe you didn't read the ranking descriptions. Also, after the original post, I decided to change the rankings to 5 levels, which allows for more definition; 0=bust. 1=below average, 2= average, 3=above average, 4=excellent. I'd be happy to re-post my evaluations using the new scale, but it's still close to my original - if that makes you excited.
Also, your conclusion that the team's talent and depth is determined by the draft alone is rather narrow thinking. We also sign FAs and we have coaches who are supposed to develop young talent. I've seen lots of talented players drafted but then ruined by poor coaching. Then there is scheme which also deals with coaches. If players are used poorly in ill conceived schemes or wrong positions, is it due to lack of drafting or developing? I’d say developing. Heck, you can buy excellent food but if you can’t cook well or let it spoil before using it, then it’s shit. Conversely you can take average food and in the hands of a master chef, make a gourmet meal of it. Yes, you can come back and say JE hired the coaches, but every HC chooses his assistants and yes, JE has input on that as well but so does the rest of the FO which includes Joe Ellis, JE's boss and guys like Russell and the talent scouts who I really don't know if JE hires them or Ellis does.
Continued -----
DeleteBottom line, JE is responsible for most of what the team is - but no, he doesn’t handle every job personally. So, if a coach isn’t doing his job, he gets fired. There were coaches fired after VJs first 5-11 season, which indicates both problems and attempts to fix those problems. VJ failed given 2 full seasons, should he been given a 3rd season or a 4th, 5th? Hell Fox was fired with a 12-4 season and before him, Shanny following a 9-7, 7-9 and 8-8 seasons.
Back to the drafting, yep, it’s been about average, at least IMO, if you compare it to the other 31 team’s drafts over the past 8 seasons. It may not be what Bronco fans expect or want but I believe it’s not as good as what JE wants either. Sorry if you feel that my or anyone else’s opinion on the value of our drafts is not worthy of your time to debate, but hey, it’s just a topic, an off season topic for Bronco fans unfortunately.
I do hope we draft better but just looking at the evaluations so far, it appears our 2013 and 2015 drafts were the worst - so 2 out of 8 were stinkers. Probably 1 or 3 others were average and a couple were good - including the last one, which puts us currently on an upward trend. Let’s see if it continues. As for Elway, I totally believe that the Broncos organization/ownership will not tolerate the team going into a prolonged dip in the toilet - and that may wind up costing Elway’s job if it persists. I’m for an excellent team and whoever the players, coaches, brass or ownership is makes little difference to me as long as the record is a winning record.
2017 might have been the biggest stinker.
DeleteLots and lots of excuses. Bottom line is we have drafted poorly and the roster is proof.
DeleteI think picks in the first 3 rounds are critical and I will start my analysis with her with just the 1st round picks. And my evaluation will be based on the expectations for a first round pick, not just because they played when there was no one else available.
ReplyDeleteI will use the 0 - 4 rating scale.
2011 - Miller - 4
2013 - Williams - 2
2014 - Roby - 1
2015 - Ray - 2
2016 - Lynch - 0 (along with a 3rd pick)
2017 - Bolles - 1
2018 - Chubb - 4
So my average is a 2 for the first round, only because Miller and Chubb were great picks. The other 5 picks leave a lot to be desired.
I will agree that Elway has been great with top 5 picks. His other 1 st round picks suck.
DeleteNo way that Ray is better than Roby
DeleteJust think of how good we could have been with blowing these other 5 first round picks. Look at the players that were available at these picks.
ReplyDeleteYa gee, we should see if we can make our picks after seeing them play for their first 8 NFL games... Ya know, although you don't believe UDFAs count, we've had some that 32 teams failed to pick through 7 rounds, guess it isn't a science and a lot of luck goes into making a good or bad pick. BTW, here's a link ranking drafts for all 32 teams over the last 5 years - Broncos are at #16 for what it's worth.
Deletehttps://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016
Might as well include Manning and ware and Talib and Ward in the draft ratings. Makes as much sense as the Udfas
DeleteYer talking about proven players versus unproven rookies... and UDFAs are unproven rookies. Just because some teams, including ours, were too stupid to draft them doesn't demean their value to a team. Draft picks are given out free by the NFL, they aren't earned so their value only rests in how close to the front of the line a player or team gets for being picked or picking. The fact of what round a pick is in or if it isn't in a round at all (UDFA) make very little difference as far as a player's value to a team. Brady was a 7th round pick and his value can be argued as the best player ever.
Delete2nd Round picks. Based on being selected in the 2nd round.
ReplyDelete2011 Moore - 1
2011 Franklin - 2
2012 Wolfe - 3
2012 Osweiller - 1
2013 Ball - 0
2014 Latimer - 1
2015 Sambrillo - 0
2016 Gotsis - 2
2017 Walker - 1
2018 Sutton - 3
So a 1.4 average in the 2nd round which is below average and the cause of a real talent deficiency
3rd round
ReplyDelete2011 Nate Irving - 0
2012 Hilmann - 1
2013 Webster - 1
2014 Schofield - 2
2015 Heurmann - 1
2016 Simmons - 3
2016 Traded for Lynch 0
2017 Henderson - 0
2017 Langley - 0
2018 Freeman - 1 (could get better, early to call)
2018 Yiadow - 1 (could get better, early to call)
So an average of ".9". Could improve based on the 2018 picks, but even if you give them 2's it only increases the average to "1.1". Woeful picks in 3rd round which has been devastating for the overall talent level.
So maybe I will do the other rounds today, but in reality, if the folks on here think that Bolles was a great pick and Langley was a good pick, then I am just wasting my time. You go ahead and take Bolles, Langley, Paxton Lynch and the other top picks and go play. Then blame VJ for the results.
ReplyDeleteI choose to be objective and determine which organiztional areas need to be improved. Until you admit that the talent evaluation skills over Elways tenure and start to make changes, then you will continue to miss the playoffs.
Hey digger, regarding the Chiefs and you comment not to crown them yet. I was only saying that the Broncos were going to be sniffing their butts for many years in the AFC West. And you can crown them in the AFC West. But I agree that they have much to prove in the playoffs. My point is that we are 0-3 against Mahommes and have no answer is sight at QB. That is why I would mortgage the future to get Murray if he was available. If not, then Tua in 2020 or Trevor Lawrence in 2021. We MUST have a dynamic young QB to be able to compete in our division or else it will be like NE and Brady dominating the AFC East for 15 years.
ReplyDeleteAm I down on the Broncos and Elway. Yes, absolutely. But I am still a fan. I just don't think this franchise should accept mediocrity, which is where we are at and our drafting has been mediocre. Bowlen would not put up with this and we should honor his legacy by keeping the Broncos expectations high. And if some Elway fans get upset, then so be it. I was a Bronco fan before Elway came here and will be a Broncos fans after he is gone, assuming I am still alive. Again, I don't want him gone, I just want him better.
ReplyDeleteI don't see anything to argue about with this statement. Pretty well sums up my feelings.
DeleteYep
DeleteMy family originally had 10 season tickets since the mid 60s. We now have 6 season tickets with the other 4 being transferred to good family friends.My girfiend's family has 4 season tickets in the first row on the field. They have had then since the mid 60s also.
ReplyDeleteFor the last 10 years or so, my cousin and I have split 2 of the tickets. We alternate games and often would take each other. For the last 2 years my GF and I have used her families tickets for another 2 games. So of the 10 home games, including preseason, I usually go to 7 games a year. We almost always tailgate.
So I spend about $1800 for tickets, $300 for a parking pass and much dinero on tailgating and beers in the stadium.
I also go to the Bronco practices around 3-5 times during preseason.
I am giving stong consideration to passing my share of the season tickets to others in my family and maybe only going to 1 game a year on my GF's tickets.
I don't really like the direction the NFL is going and the hard to enforce rules and all the replays. I am tired of assholes at the stadium. And while I will always be a Broncos fan, I am losing some enthusiasm for the current direction of the franchise.
The prospect of watching the games at home is very enticing. I need to decide this soon.
I think some of that is a function of getting older. After I turned about 61, I realized that i just don't like huge crowds any more. I don't want to be in them, don't want to be around them and find myself really avoiding them.
DeleteI'm sure at one point I was one of the punk ass kids shoving my way through, running into people, getting drunk and being a pain in the ass. Glad I grew up and found a way to enjoy the crowds for many years. Now, I'm done with them. It just isn't fun any more.
I lived in Colorado for 18 years and had season tickets for the final 12 years. I got tired of the assholes at the games as well as the weather, the drive (2hrs) and the traffic and sold my tickets about a year before moving out of Colorado. I'm a TV Bronco fan, I enjoy it as much as being there... maybe more.
DeleteWell buddy old pal, I'd be willing to buy your tickets for a game. I'm old too and don't like crowds much either but would love to go to a game. I've only been to three Bronco games in my life. I'm 55. Been a Bronco fan since I was born in Denver.
DeleteI know that you are not supposed to be critical of Elway on this site. So I will change all of my posts to :
ReplyDeleteElway is great. His drafting is great. His UDFAs are great. His coach selections have been great. All of his QB picks have been great. The Broncos are in great position to dominate for years.
Wow, don't act so butt hurt. Can't anyone have a different opinion than you? I have challenged you the most yet I have stated several times that Elway has made mistakes and that he has received criticism for it. Is it you loved VJ so much that you are really bitter that he got fired? Elway hasn't made 100% excellent draft picks but nobody ever has. What we are discussing evidently is how bad are his picks and his job performance as GM. I'd say Elway's record speaks for itself. How many GMs have accomplished what he has over the past 8 seasons? Please list the GMs with better records, I'd really like to know because to be truthful, I really don't follow GMs in the NFL. If there are better ones out there, I'd certainly like to know who we should be going after.
DeleteNot. I would say the udfas have turned out pretty good for him. I agree that his drafts for the most part are pretty bad. Especially the failing of the higher pics.
DeleteHe has had his share of free-agent luck also. It's unbelievable that he can't find a quarterback. I am not anti Elway though.
DeleteLet's look at Elways performance without Manning. I have stated many times that Elway deserves all the credit for attracting Manning here. Then Manning made it way easy to get the other free agents at a discount. Elway gets major credit for those first five years of being a GM. But even at the same time, he was sucking at drafting.
DeleteB1st, look at his last 3 years as GM. What has he accomplished? What is the talent level of the team? I did not have strong feelings either way about VJ. You did. You desperately wanted him fired. You overlook the fact that Elway hired him with no head coaching experience and little meaningful coordinator experience and then after one year had to sleep on it to decide to bring him back. That is on Elway, not VJ.
B1st, I don't remember these several times that you said Elway has made mistakes. Seems to me you always defend him regardless of the situation.
You're criticism of Elway is that he has not made 100% excellent draft picks. Wow, that is a strong condemnation.
Elway's last 3 years? Let's see;
DeletePaxton Lynch - QB Bust, but who knows if another team can save him. But for now, bust.
2- Adam Gotsis - DT good pick, has improved year over year.
3- Justin Simmons - Good pick, starter.
4- Devontae Booker - RB Good pick, starter.
5- Connor McGovern - G Good pick, getting better - ranked by PFF as a top 6.
6- Andy Janovich - FB Good pick, ranked by PFF as #2.
7- Riley Dixon - P Good pick, been a starter all 3 years in NFL.
2017 = 8 picks
1- Garett Bolles - OT Average play, 2 year starter drafted out of a poor LOT class, said would need work, improving
2- Demarcus Walker - DE Decent pick, has talent but VJ said players ahead of him kept him off field. Will see more playing time in 2019.
3- Carlos Henderson - WR Bust, bad pick but was rated #10 by scouts.
3- Brandon Langley - CB OK pick for comp pick at bottom of 3rd rd, projected 4th rd, was a WR in college so no experience to speak of, still young, could get better with coaching.
5- Jake Butt - TE 2 years of injuries, not certain how you draft for that but he was considered a steal in the 5th - book still out due to lack of playtime.
5- Isaiah McKensie - WR Bust, bad hands for a WR.
6- De'Angelo Henderson - RB = 1
7- Chad Kelly - QB = Last player taken, Mr Irrelevant, has talent, bad character, worth the risk and may come back with another team. Some kids grow up.
2018 = 10 picks
1- Bradley Chubb - DE Excellent
2- Courtland Sutton - WR Very good
3- Royce Freeman - RB Very good, could have been used much better by coaches.
3- Isaac Yiadom - CB = Good, has learning curve but may be above average given time.
4- Josey Jewell - ILB = Good pick, value, will do well under Fangio I suspect.
4- DaeSean Hamilton - WR = Good pick, value if used correctly. Again, coaching
5- Troy Fumagalli - TE = Injured, unknown
6- Sam Jones - G = Unknown, maybe a later development if they decide to keep working him or go with another future higher pick.
6- Keishawn Bierria - ILB = Has potential, may respond well with proper coaching and scheme
7- David Williams - RB Unknown, probably goes to another team unless we have lots of injuries at RB.
And yes, you did/do have strong feelings about VJ. You have repeatedly criticized posters here for bashing VJ and not JE. HC was the immediate problem and he had zero successes, here or elsewhere - unlike JE who has succeeded as a player, an owner of the Crush and as a GM, he has had more successes than failures. And yes, he has had criticism for it after drafts and after VJ's shitty 2017 season from me and several others... sorry you missed them. I guess you didn't read that JE's decision to fire VJ after 2017 was nixed by his boss Joe Ellis? So why not one word from you about Ellis who h fired Shanny, hired McDouche and has had a say in every hire since Bowlen stepped down - including Elway. Your condemnation of Elway is that every thing he's done has been below average which I disagree with. Was I supposed to say "Keep VJ"? I didn't like him to begin with and stated as much on here BEFORE he was hired. I wanted Kyle Shanny and said as much. So yes, I did criticize JE's hiring. I also didn't like his drafting of Oswieller, Paxton, Bolles (I preferred Ramczyk) and several others over the years and have said as much on here. Guess you missed those posts as well. But that's beside the point. Point is, you seem to think everyone on here are Elway apologists and that's simply not true. If we were to fire Elway today, how long do you think he'd go without being swept up by another team...maybe a day or two? As fo VJ, I said it before and I'll say it again, JE shoulds never hired him, he shoulda fired him after 2017 and he finally did the right thing by admitting his mistake and firing him now. Okay, is that enough criticism of Elway for you or do we have to go with names like Smellway, Horseface or Dullway to prove we actually disagree with some things he's done?
I really don't see anything wrong with those pics. Hindsight some of them suck. At the time a both pics I was more excited about the Carlos Henderson pic then the Sutton pic .
DeleteI guess I meant the record in the last 3 years since Manning left. Woeful and certainly the team has some real holes on it. That is where I think Elway has to be held accountable.
DeleteAnd I could care less about VJ. The point that you cannot or will not understand is that a top tier franchise cannot change coaches every 2 years. That is on Elway. I questioned the VJ signing at the time, just as I worry about Fangio. VJ made many mistakes, but that was somewhat expected when you hire a guy with such weak qualifications. The blame should be on the guy hiring, Elway, Ellis or this stupid fucking committee in charge of the team.
I spent very little time on the ranking thing and did get a little confused with the only 0 through 3 rating system. I upped Langley one point from what first had him only because he is starting elsewhere now. Change the couple more one point one way or the other but not really set on any of it. Question, if we were to get a better left tackle, would Bolles be able to handle the right side better than what he can handle the left?
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Seems like RTs have their fare share of top pass rushers to contend with these days. We would have to put him there and see.
DeleteYeah but not as many times as the left tackle. Hey can you tell me if Mc Govern was our starting center after Paradis Went Down.
DeleteYes, and I think he did a good job. With Paradis' injuries and due a new contract, it would not surprise me to see him released and go with McGovern.
DeleteLangely is not starting anywhere else. Still with Broncos. Spent a lot of year on practice squad.
ReplyDeleteMy bad. Got him confused with Webster I think.
DeleteNews coming out that Kubiak will not be OC and will not be on Fangio's staff.
ReplyDeleteHope he stays in the front office and helps with the draft. I think Kubiak was the reason for the improved drafting in 2018.
You assume Kubiak had a lot to do with the improved rafting.
DeleteI do. Seems like the only thing that changed.
DeleteWelcome to Denver Coach Fangio, where the drama never ends.
ReplyDeleteGO COLTS!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePer Troy Renck, Denver Sport commentator
ReplyDeleteThe winner in this? Broncos Fangio. He made it known he wanted an offense that included college concepts. In talking with Kubiak, there was not sense offense would evolve. If he gets Munchak to coach OL and right playcaller, this is huge for Fangio.
Great news about wanting some new offensive concepts. Maybe Fangio played against Kubes offense long enough to know it is no longer competitive without a Manning caliber QB running it?
DeleteLooks like the Broncos want to interview 49ers quarterbacks coach Rich Scangarello for our OC job. I was thinking maybe we'd try to get Zac Taylor as OC but it looks like he may go to Cincy as their HC. Don't know much about Scangarello but I will look further. Now that Kubes is out with the Broncos, makes me wonder what went down. Last week JE was saying GK would remain in some capacity and even refused to let other teams interview him... but now that has changed and Gary will be leaving it looks like. Fangio appears to be a strong authoritarian, an asshole but who is good with coaching Defenses... maybe what we need? Who knows but if he was able to demand and get control of his own OC hire, then ya, he's strong willed. After softy VJina, may be a good thing, may not... we shall see how the players buy in or not.
DeleteFrom other stuff I read Fangio was happy to keep kubes. But they have had difference of opinion on offensive direction now. Seems good that Fangio wants college concepts. Will be interesting to see who he brings on staff.
DeleteWow, I guess the 49ers have now blocked the Broncos from interviewing quarterbacks coach Rich Scangarello for our OC job. Hmmm, who's next?
DeleteDidn’t think you could blocked an interview for a promotion, that’s pretty shitty from the 49ers.
DeleteGould, I agree about want an OC with college concepts. I've been saying that for a while going back to Tebow and Gase, I stated on here then that the RPO was the future of the NFL because that's they type of player talent coming out of most colleges. Whoever adapts to it first will lead the way (KC, LAR, etc.) and they will have the largest talent pool to draw from with the least amount of retooling QBs etc. to fit the old WCO.
DeleteThe issue between the parties began when Kubiak insisted on bringing in his own guys like Rick Dennison, Brian Pariani, and Klint Kubiak back to the staff. Elway reportedly balked at this idea and both sides decided to part ways because of this.
ReplyDeleteThe narrative that there were Co-Head Coaches and that Elway was forcing Kubiak on to candidates now appears to be dead.
DeleteI agree, I really don't want to see Dennison and Klint running the O again. When it comes down to it, I never cared much for Kubes O, too stiff and predictable. I was okay with him sticking around because I thought he may have been why we drafted better last year but who knows, maybe that was VJina's input or someone else. Even if it was Kubes, hopefully Fangio has a good eye for talent. Guess it's wait and see. Looks like that "rebuild" word JE hates to use is in full effect... no sense in calling it anything else.
DeleteGould, did you watch Fangio's full intro presser? I did, he seemed really adverse to any type of co-coaching idea, whether real or perceived. Fangio wants to establish himself as the alpha dog and I think he has.
DeleteI like the idea of kubes as oc not a fan of his whole band.
DeleteI did watch his presser, yeah he didn’t say much or want to commit to anything scheme wise. But you can tell he will be hard nosed. Hopefully the players respond to that.
I don’t think Munchak would be able to leave to become our OL coach, as that would be a latteral move and most teams won’t allow that. He would likely need to be elevated to something like asst head coach/OL or asst OC/OL in order for that to be possible. I really wanted him running our line. I am very interested to see how the offense is put together.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, Joseph just became the Cardinals DC.
Just read that Munchak is no longer under contract, so he is eligible to move. And we have informed them that we intend to speak to him. I really like this move.
DeleteYep we can get Munchak, that would be a good pick up.
Deleteyes it would
DeleteJags interviewing Kubes for OC.
ReplyDeleteNFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Broncos "may be plotting a run" at trading for Antonio Brown
I don’t get the run at AB.
DeleteJust what we need, a high priced malcontent in the locker room with a new, headstrong authoritarian HC... I''d give it 3 weeks before a total meltdown, complete with benching or holdout followed by a cut for zero or a trade for less than half of what we would pay for him. I'd say sign Medusa or the Grim Reaper before Brown.
DeleteAB and Sanders are friends. Would be wierd though to make a run at him when Sanders may be odd man out then.
DeleteThey basically the same build and type of player. You would have to cut sanders (10 mil) to make up for ABs 22mil, still that’s a big chunk of the salary cap for a WR.
DeleteImo, Keenum will have to redo his deal in order to stay.
DeleteHe had over 100 catches and 15 tds and was still bitching about his role, how is he going to do with Keenum? Lol
DeleteAnd it would require trading or some draft picks for him. I'm a fan of brown but not a fan of how much we would have to give up to get him. Would rather just have Sanders back. The only position worthy of trading draft picks for us would be a quarterback.
DeleteJE won't admit it but with back to back losing season, a new HC and coaching staff, a young team with talent - many of them being held back due to aging vets in front of them and bloated salaries at several positions, the Broncos are clearly in a full re-build mode. Fact is, it's stupid to sign big name, big salary players when you're doing a major rebuild - especially players you have to give up draft picks for. Bringing in high priced skilled players is a move you make to put you over the top when you're already close to being elite... we aren't there yet. Three things needed for a major rebuild; 1) new, innovative coaching, scheme and upper management if needed 2) money and cap space to get the pieces needed, 3) draft picks and draft position.
DeleteAre the Colts this bad?! No 1st downs and down 17-0 with 6:00 to go in the half.
ReplyDeleteSeems to be more non competitive games in this years playoffs than normal.
ReplyDeleteHof QB and Hof coach covers a lot of their issues. They are really good in playing as a team.
ReplyDeleteHey 1st, I had dinner Saturday at Elways. His steaks suck too.
ReplyDeleteJust giving you crap. The steaks were excellent.
DeleteYou sure it wasn't horse meat? Hahaha! Just kidding, it was probably donkey meat. :) Seriously, I've heard it's a great place to eat. When I lived in Colorado, I don't think it was open or maybe just opened - either way, I never got to eat there... probably a good thing since I'm sure it's pricey!
DeleteI read, Fangio is trying to bring DBs coach Donatell from the Bears back to Denver for our DC position. Play calling on the D is gonna be done by Fangio so Donatell's job will mainly be coordinating the other D coaches. Funny how coaches recycle around and then back in the NFL. We're also looking to do another go round with DL coach Bill Kollar, running backs coach Curtis Modkins and strength and conditioning coach Loren Landow.
Interviewing the SF QBs coach fo our OC after all. Not blocked anymore. Still going after Steelers OL coach too.
ReplyDeleteBeing interviewed today.
DeleteMurray has entered the draft.
ReplyDeleteI want Murray. I have not been super excited about anything Elway has done lately. I remember the splashes with Manning, Ware, Talib, etc. But lately the hirings/signings/drafting has not been as exciting. We have VJ, Keenum, Fangio, etc. Nothing sexy. Nothing splashy.
DeleteI love Phillip Lindsay and as a CU fan I was disappointed that he was not drafted. Luckily he stayed in his hometown and the Broncos were fortunate. But it was not a splashy signing at the time. Chubb was a great pick and is the closest to being a sexy, splashy pick to me. But, I really wanted a QB last year, so some of the excitement was offset by that. Don't get me wrong, Chubb was a great pick and a great player.
Plus the last 3 years have been so frustrating.
Murray would excite the shit out of me.
Murray might be a franchise QB but he is also small for the NFL. I'd be happy if we got him but I'm not counting on it. What does excite me about him declaring is that Murray declaring expands our chances of getting one of the few decent QBs in this year's class. We should be good for one of the top 2-3 at the #10 slot and maybe deal to move up to the #2 QB (whatever slot that turns out to be). That's the other benefit of Murray declaring, we may not need to sell the farm to move up to the #1 QB slot (if it's even available) if we can get the guy we want by staying put or moving up just enough slots to take the #2 QB taken. I think there's only 2, maybe 3 teams who may take a QB ahead of us... depends on who else is available. If some sure-fire pro-bowl starter is available (like how Chubb fell to us at #5 last year), one of those teams ahead of us may go with them rather than reaching for a QB. Who knows, all I know is this year's class is improving and ya never know who else may declare. Going to be a very interesting off season with the new coaches, new eyes for QB, DB and OL talent.
DeleteHate to be the downer but Murray most likely going to play baseball.
DeleteIf Murray were smart he'd go with baseball, more money, less wear on the body. But I didn't figure we'd get him anyways, he's 5'9+7/8", just under 5'10"... yikes, I'm 5'10" and I'd need a stepladder to throw over the Broncos OL. Maybe we could fit him with 8" cleats?
DeletePersonally I want Lawrence whenever you can come out.
Delete2021. Long time away, but what a great freshman year. I love Lawrence.
DeleteGould, I'm not so sure he will pick baseball. Not saying for sure, just saying that I don't think its a done deal yet.
DeleteB1st. Yes more money in baseball in the long run, but the next few season will be riding busses in Single A and Double A. While football could be playing QB on Monday Night right away. It will be interesting for sure.
I don't care about his size. He is a tremendous talent.
Munchak has agreed to terms as OL coach.
ReplyDeleteI was just coming on to post that.
DeleteGot our guy, that’s a good hire.
DeleteGary Kubiak joins the Minnesota Vikings in an offensive advisory role
ReplyDeleteHope this does not return us to the days of sucky drafting.
I read a report that Matt Russell ran the 2018 draft and should have got most of the credit, who do you believe though.
DeleteGould. I hope that is correct. Not sure what to believe.
DeleteI saw that too, Vikes also hired Kubes son Klint as their QB coach which figures into why JE decided not to hire him after disagreements about an offensive coaching staff. Kubiak wanted offensive line coach Rick Dennison, tight ends coach Brian Pariani and Klint as part of his staff. I'm glad JE went in a different direction... I'd kinda get sick if Dennison came back - not that I dislike him, I just think we new newer, fresher ideas on offense. It's kinda creepy for Klint to have his dad showing up at every job he lands... who knows, maybe they're like the Waltons, "G'nite Mary Ellen, G'nite Johnboy... G'nite blah, blah, blah".
DeleteMaybe it was Russell and they just locked up all the booze in the camp 6 weeks before the draft?
DeleteI did not want all of Kubiaks retreads either. But i am disappointed that he is not still in the front office. Oh well.
DeleteI am disappointed as well that he didn’t stay in the front office, but landing Munchak AND Fangio is like the best of both worlds. Fangio should help return this defense to it’s former glory, and we have the best OL coach in the league (as well as one of the best D line coaches).
DeleteWe finally received permission from the 9ers to interview their QB coach for our OC position. Not sure how I feel about that, but I can’t say I am disappointed by any of the coaching staff so far. This could be some of Elway’s best work yet.
He has already publicly stated Keenum is a short term gap QB. That could be a sign that we may move on from him if we can. I sure the hell hope so. Sad thing is, he has only had two seasons with completion percentages over 60%, 2017 when he had 67% and 62% in 2018. Regardless of his career year in 2017, he was never destined for greatness.
It strikes me as odd that Munchak was willing to come as a line coach. OC maybe, but line coach? That's what he's been for years. Seems like he'd want an OC job at least.
ReplyDeleteUnless the story about having family in Denver is really the reason. In any case, GREAT! Heaven knows we need the help on the o-line.
Family. More money. Colorado. What's not to love about this job over the Pittsburgh job and all their controversy?
DeleteI'm glad Kubiak is gone. I have a hard time believing he had that much to do with last year's draft. I think it was more luck than anything else. Kubiak could have stayed in the front office as far as I'm concerned, but as oversee I'm keeping Denison and his son and other favorites of his, I'm glad he's gone. The main reason I'm glad though is because I was positive Keenum was going to stay if Kubiak stayed. I hope for all our sakes that either Keenum renegotiates two more of a backup salary guy or we cut ties with him.
ReplyDeleteSo, there is some wide spread belief in Denver that Kubiak was a big part of the 2018 draft success. True or not? I have no idea. It seems reasonable since, he was the only new face in the draft with Elway and Russell having been there for years. So, somehow, we changed from sucky drafting to a great draft class.
DeleteMaybe Digger is right and it was more luck. I have just assumed that it was Kubiak.
If I am right, and it was luck, we ought to be worried. Earlier 1st talked about how Elway likes to say that we are not rebuilding but in reality it's a rebuild every year. Certain things happened throughout the process of a rebuild and it just snowballs into the direction you are headed. Like the Kubiak as OC thing. Elway was searching for coaches that would accept him as the offensive coordinator. All of a sudden there's a wrench thrown in that. Things happen. We sign certain free agents and let others walk. We go after other free agents and don't always get them. We make a run at drafting McCaffrey and his stock goes too high. It all takes luck. Sometimes Elway is lucky sometimes he's not. One thing for sure, Imo, he tries his best every year 2 get a contender on the field. It doesn't always work out.
DeleteI see Elway admitted during a Peter King interview that he made a mistake in hiring VJina;
ReplyDelete"I talked to [Vance Joseph] before the process a couple of years ago, and knew him, and going in, I had an idea that he was kind of our guy. I admit it. I was wrong on that one. I don’t like to say it out loud because I don’t want to offend VJ, who is a good football coach. But things didn’t work out."
Elway also had this to say about Lynch;
"you know, we drafted Paxton Lynch in the first round [in 2016] and [head coach] Gary [Kubiak] was on board with Paxton and I thought he was a good fit with what Gary did. And then Gary gets sick and can’t do it anymore. Now all of a sudden we change a whole system that we had drafted a quarterback for. And once that [public] tidal wave started against him, he is getting bashed, and it’s hard for a 23, 24-year-old kid to beat that."
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/14/nfl-divisional-playoffs-saints-patriots-rams-chiefs-fmia-peter-king/?cid=pfttease/
Use above link and once there, click on side-bar story "What I Learned" on the left side of the page.
Good article. Thanks.
DeleteLove Peter King. Why don't I read him more?
DeleteOBF
This is your point.
5. I think this was a thought-provoking message, conveyed to me over the weekend by a current NFL coach after it looked like all eight coaching vacancies had been filled—while only one GM in the league got fired. (Oakland’s Reggie McKenzie was replaced by Mike Mayock. I don’t count Baltimore, because Ozzie Newsome’s departure was a clear retirement.) “Eight coaches fired, and the same GMs who failed—I think in all eight jobs—hired the new coaches. Where is the accountability for the GMs? Do they save their jobs because they’re close with the owner and the owner is siding with the GM instead of the coach? It seems ridiculous to me that in eight jobs, all the fault goes to the coaches and none to the GMs. Explain that.” I can’t.
YES
DeleteI can buy into the VJ admission, but the Lynch quote is bs. If Kubiak was on board with Paxton during the draft, then it sure changed as camp began. It seemed like Kubiak wanted no part of Lynch. Remember the final game when Elway wanted Lynch to play against the Raiders. Kubiak said he would play Lynch in the second half and then did not. It was like Kubiak was saying FU to Elway and Lynch.
ReplyDeleteAnd spare me the tidal wave by the fans. Please. It was Elway's stupidest decision as a GM. Everyone knows that. The team finally admitted the mistake and moved on. Fans have moved on. Let's not try to spin it now.
Of the things that have happened so far I feel we have made great progress.
ReplyDeleteOops premature publish. Anyway fangio is a great defensive coach for our 3-4 defense. The key to a great 3/4 is to have a great nose tackle. He gets that. Offensively, we have hit rock-bottom the last few years. Not having a quarterback and for some reason not being able to draft a quarterback even though we had Elway and Kubiak going after San Francisco quarterback coach as our offensive coordinator will finally address our quarterback problems. Then the other obvious problem over the past few years has been our offensive line. It hasn't been a secret. Not addressing it early enough in the draft for many years hurt bad. Some of the ones we did get early in the draft came and went through trades or released. Finally we have addressed this. We got the best offense of line coach in the NFL 2 take a lateral move by just paying him a little more. How freaking awesome is that?
DeleteDigger, I'm confused. Sounds like you are saying that we resolved our QB and OL issues.
DeleteI'm saying if we get the SF QB coach as our OC it is a good hire in addressing our QB problems. It still takes the right player moves.
DeleteOL wise, yeah I think we solved it. The OL should be good again in no time.
Pretty easy to solve the OL problem. Should have done it 3 years ago.
ReplyDeleteI think we did try to solve the OL problem years ago and frankly, maybe Digger is right in assuming the problem was coaching. In 2016, we had Okung @LT (1st rd) who had done well in his 6 years with SEA, then looked bad in his one year in DEN and returned to looking good his last 2 years with LAC. So why 8 good years at the position with 2 other teams and 1 lousy year with DEN? We also had Schofield @RG (3rd rd) who couldn't get it done in DEN but has done well with LAC. Garcia LG (4th rd) and Paradis C (6th rd) have stayed with the Broncos but only Paradis has done well while Garcia has sorta stayed by default due to other OL injuries. Then there's Donald Stevenson @RT (3rd rd) who did okay with KC but stunk like dog shit with DEN. Heck, we got Leary LG/RG and he turned out to be below what he was with DAL and injury prone to boot - even with DAL. And then there's Bolles LT who has just 2 years with the Broncos after being drafted in the 1st round, 20th overall and is already being called a bust. It seems we have thrown talent at our OL as all the players have been 4th rd or better picks except for Paradis who has played at a #2-4 ranked level according to PFF and Leary who graded as a 3rd rd but went undrafted due to injury. So our OL has had talent, size, proven ability with other teams and yet were crap with the Broncos. That to me says our OL coaching was bad or the players didn't fit our scheme - what we were trying to do on offense. Guess the point is we tried and by any reasonable assessment, we should have done better but didn't. This year we had lots of injuries on OL but we also have some youth in Wilkerson, McGovern, Bolles and Jones. Turner is still young. I have no idea on Falah who's 24 and Veldheer is the oldest on the line at 31. Veldheer is injured and could very likely be replaced by a draftee. Our OL, even with it's rash of injuries this year, probably played the best out of the last 3 seasons, One thing for sure, it will be great having one of the best OL coaches in the business (Munchak) molding our young OL for 2019.
DeleteBeadles, Garland. Clark
DeleteSome background on Rich Scangarello
ReplyDeleteThanks.
DeleteIDK if he keeps Keenum or takes Beathard or Mullin with him, but whatever happens it should be a big improvement from the offensive offense we have had to watch lately.
Can't disagree with much here. I would also add McGovern, who had a decent season, and might replace Paradis due to injury history and salary cap issues.
ReplyDeleteFor whatever reason, our OL has been poor, but can't disagree that they have been better for other teams.
Don't forget Sambillo, who sucked here and I know the Falcons are regretting giving up a 5th rounder for him.
Who could forget very forgettable Ty? Second rd pick as a right side turn-style and welcoming host for rusher bent on bending Siemian, Paxton and Osweiller - oh wait, Os may have escaped to HOU and returned after Ty Sombrero (named after the Mexican hat dance pass rushers did on him) was pawned off on the Falcons... at least we got a 5th rounder for him! YAAAAY!
DeleteSombrero made me chuckle.
DeleteAlways good to turn those 2nd round picks into 5th round picks.
Yeah. Or the Tebow 1st rounder into whatever we got from the Jets.
DeleteRight. Another one. I remember Brad was so worried on here that we would one day sorely regret dumping Tebow. Guess he did not need to worry after all. I will Elway major kudos (just for you 1st) for recognizing right away that Tebow could not play qb in the NFL.
DeleteFunny. The one thing I could get with you on bitching about Elway for you commend him for.
DeleteBrandon Staley was signed as the Broncos OLB coach. Staley is following Fangio out of Chittown and Maybe another coach, Ed Donatell the Bears DB coach interviewed with the Broncos today - he may be our next DC.
ReplyDeleteJoe Woods signed with the 49ers as their pass defense coordinator... and if we sign Scangarello we could call it a coaching swap, Woods for Scangarello.
DeleteGot our DC, Ed is back.
ReplyDelete👍
DeleteI used to know Ed from when our kids played youth sports. good guy.
ReplyDeleteOf course our kids are now in their 30's
DeleteScangarello is back for round two today after spending yesterday in talks to work out the deal with the Broncos for the OC position. Looks like the deal is just getting the details worked out and I'd bet we sign him before the day is done.
ReplyDeleteYep. Signed.
DeleteDigger, you going off prematurely again?
DeleteBroncos hired 49ers QBs coach Rich Scangarello as offensive coordinator.
DeleteScangarello, 46, is a Kyle Shanahan disciple having worked with him in Atlanta and San Francisco following numerous jobs around the lower college ranks. He's a relative unknown but is now being tasked with running the offense in Denver alongside new defensive-minded coach Vic Fangio. Scangarello will have OL coach Mike Munchak to lean on, and we expect this offense to be run-oriented based on both Munchak and Shanahan's histories on hammering the run.
Rotoworld
It was posted on there a couple hours ago
DeleteThe Heading for that paragraph is
ReplyDelete"Broncos finalizing pact with OC Scangarello"
Adam Schefter is reporting Scangarello is OC now.
ReplyDeleteScangarello should be interesting, from what I gathered, it's the new Shanny Jr updated version of the WCO withsome college wringles added like RPO and more emphasis on the passing attack... Now all we need is a QB who can run it. From what I've read, the ideal is a gunslinger type who isn't afraid to hang in there with a strong pass rush and deliver the ball downfield. Unlike the old WCO that dinked and dunked Montana to NFL fame with short, horizontal passes, the newer version goes more for a mid to deep field vertical passing attack with lots of QB run/pass options. With Booker, Lindsay and Freeman in our RB stable, things could open up. Booker is already excellent at catching the ball and if we work Lindsay and Freeman more on that angle coupled with Sutton, Hamilton, Patrick and hopefully Sanders cutting up the mid to deep routes, we could start to be a scoring team again.... but I'm getting ahead of myself, who knows? All I know is things will be different than the final year of PFM (even though we won the SB, we weren't doing much scoring and half of that was by the D) followed by 2years of Siemian and 1 of Keenum. Yup, it would be exciting to see some big scoring games again.
DeleteThe mob family is complete.
DeleteLOL! Yep, we are now officially the Mile High Mafioso.
DeleteOur long snapper Casey Kreiter was added to AFC's Pro Bowl roster... we's badass!
ReplyDeleteSo the Coaching Staff is pretty much finalized. I'm pretty much neutral to the hires, much as I was to the last round of coaches 2 years ago.
ReplyDelete2 years ago we hired a head coach with no head coaching experience (and only 1 year of coordinator experience) and a defensive coordinator with no coordinator experience. Surely, there would be growing pains. Then everybody wanted to fire both of them after half of a season. And the calls to fire them continued LOUDLY for both of their seasons.
Now this year we hire a Head Coach with no head coaching experience, but significant and successful coordinator experience. However, he has spent 19 of the last 20 season up in the box and not on the field. We hired an OC with no NFL OC experience and no NFL play calling experience.
I would hope that we allow some time to learn and grow. Maybe it will not be needed as these new hires will be great from day 1. But let's give them a legitimate chance to succeed.
This will be our 4th Head Coach in 6 years. We CANNOT continue this trend of our GM hiring and firing coaches every few years.
Good luck to Fangio, Donatell, Scangarello, Munchak and all the coaches. I will be supporting you and rooting for you. Hopefully Bronco Nation will understand that we have some talent issues that need to be resolved and will let these new coaches do their jobs and coach and develop young players.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe Broncos have officially released Musgraves.
ReplyDeleteFunny, how everyone was so excited about McCoy coming back as OC a few years ago. Then everyone hated him and he was fired before his first season was over. Then everyone was excited about Musgraves and the job he had done with Derek Carr. Then everyone hated him after a year.
Maybe, just maybe it had something to do with the severe talent deficiency on offense. Maybe it was the lowest paid offensive players in the league that was the problem.
I want to get out of the reputation that Elway is getting as a coach killer.
The only team with worse odds than Denver to win the 2020 Super Bowl is Miami. Doesn't Vegas know we solved our problems with the new coaching staff? Better get our bets down quickly.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure you won't agree with me, but the majority of our issues the last few years have been with a terrible offensive line. We heard the best offensive line coach in the NFL.
DeleteHired.
DeleteI partially agree. I think the problems have been OL and QB. I am hoping that you are correct about the coaching having a huge impact on the OL performance.
DeleteI will wait to see what if anything we do about QB. That is a much bigger issue than bad coaching.
But we kinda agree. Good enough for you?
Yep. I partially agree with you on the quarterback Thing 2. I think a lot of our quarterback problem was due to our offensive line problem. I think if Simeon or Keenum had more time they would have done better. However I also feel in today's NFL the quarterback has to provide himself with more time. Offensive lineman coming out of college or not going to fare as well in the NFL.
DeleteBroncos hire TE coach Wade Harman, formerly of the Falcons
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about him. Must be somebody the new offensive coordinator knows from his days in Atlanta
DeleteRumor that Paxton Lynch is going to sign with the Seadogs.
ReplyDeleteyep I just saw that it's a done deal.
DeleteReserve/future contract
DeletePer Mike Klis
ReplyDeleteBroncos are bringing in former Denver guard Chris Kuper for interview as assistant OL coach, per sources. Kuper coached past 3 seasons for Adam Gase in Miami. Kuper is well regarded by Broncos and he would be learning from the best in new OL coach Mike Munchak.
Cool.
Deleteneed new post soon
ReplyDelete